DeviantArt

<br />I really see no need to debate wallpaper uploads here at Skinbase... especially when you bring in &quot;other site&quot; rules and regulations... Each site is dictated by its own rules and regs... and do not come into the same circumstances as &quot;other&quot; site.... Hence the need for these to be published... <br /> <br />Jafo; I can understand your dilemma at WC, but it really has no bearing on the rules here at Skinbase... You must be completely satisfied with your roll there.. or your would have left your admin post a long time ago.. I know that WC has changed its’ policy on wall uploads and the admins are no longer required to answer inquiries as to why a particular wall did not make moderation... and so be it... but what has that got to do with Skinbase?? I for one... am glad you are not an admin here... There are a lot of interesting and thoughtful creations uploaded and enjoyed by many... As a matter of fact... I enjoy the wall section here at Skinbase above any other site... including WC where they are meticulous in the degree of moderation... After all... Your taste in a wall will not necessarily depict my taste... and that, Jafo, makes the world go ‘round.. <br /> <br />I feel that a &quot;skinning&quot; site should entertain a wallpaper section... If everyone &quot;skinned an application&quot; there would be no walls... That is one of the best things in life... everyone does he own thing... If a skinner has the ability AND time for both... more power to him... but if that skinner wants to use someone else’s walls, he should have that choice also... So therefore I think it behooves a site to have a complete array of skins, walls, icons etc... So one can mix and match to suit his/her own tastes in how they choose to modify their monitor... <br />

hobnobber.....yes, skin sites DO have wall sections.....and icons, etc....but eventually this &acute;doing one&acute;s own thing&acute; and &acute;mix and match&acute; should also include sounds, screensavers, cans of spray paint for the beige box, etc...etc...ad nauseum and the end result is a diminution of the essence of the actual &acute;skinning&acute; component that the site was created to host. <br />Skin sites, whether here or anywhere else all suffer from the same pressures of survival, albeit at different degrees and different stages of their evolutionary progression. What happens at Wincustomize, or Deviantart, or not, will definitely have a bearing on their sister sites involved in skins and skinning. <br />What many fail to understand is that people like Madam Snow, here are far more valuable to the global skinning community than any dopey Admin here or anywhere else......someone who has taken it upon himself to collect an archive of works, many of which are long since departed for all sorts of reasons...though mostly because of &acute;pressures&acute;...like the ones that supposedly do not have relevance here, but may at Wincusto....as you suggested...;p Every site has database loss....thanks to the killing of a site by eFront, or plug-pulling with Deskmod....orjust plain hacking.....several LS sites, Deskmod [I think] Custo....and others. <br /> <br />Anyone hanging around the skinning world long enough can testify to how fragile the whole shebang really is....at least now not everything is in just 2 baskets [skinz and custo].....and futures are marginally more secure. <br /> <br />I take me &acute;at off to Snow, though.....&acute;cos he&acute;s a one-man backup drive....;)

Now that made sense :-) <br /> <br />Hurray for Madam Snow (who also happends to be one of the dopey Admins here ;-))!!!

sorry cant help it, I&acute;m a certified (skin)freak.... ;) ;) <br /> <br />pssst PK, its &acute;Lady Snowman&acute; 🌙 🌙

Lady Snowman???????? <br />huh? <br />ok <br />Snowman is a WOMAN???

&quot;Snowman is a WOMAN??? &quot; well,.. duhhhh!! Just look at that nick! &quot;snowman&quot;, remove the S and the first N, then flip the O and the W and there you are: woman <br /> <br />:)

&quot;Snowman is a WOMAN??? &quot; well,.. duhhhh!! Just look at that nick! &quot;snowman&quot;, remove the S and the first N, then flip the O and the W and there you are: woman <br /> <br />:)

What? You mean you hadn&acute;t figured that out yet?

here, here jafo! <br /> <br />it seems from reading this thread that the majority of skinner dont&acute; consider walls to be skins... correct me if i&acute;m wrong... (hmm... that should be the next poll here!) <br /> <br />well, yes a skin site should offer variety, but why not a site that specializes and does only skins way better than any other skin site? isn&acute;t that just as good? would it not be worth visiting even if you had to get walls somewhere else?

I view a wall as a skin for your desktop. <br />i know that its not so technical as the ini file etc. But let me assure you, as far as myself is concerned, its just as demanding if not more so. I am not being general here. I think most walls suck. But I think the majoraty of &quot;skins&quot; leaves alot to be desired also. <br /> <br />If i wanted to get tech I would point out, at least as far as im concerned, the programs I use are by no means easy. They are demanding in and of themselves. I often have to do many conversions ans switch apps before I even get to where im headed. For me it is demanding but rewarding. <br />A friend of mine does not do anyof this skinning stuff. His desktop is blank. How drab and depressing THAT is. <br />So I hold my head high in the skinning community. I respect others and others respect me (except for that asshole in the other &quot;nameless&quot; site, no not WC) Though my work is not always &acute;great&acute; it is work.

Jafo... are you saying that the &quot;program skin&quot; takes preference?? If so, I agree to a point... but at the same time I would like the &quot;other&quot; programs that I use frequently to be of the same quality.. I do like screensavers, sounds, and an occasional paint job... but that is a whole different catagory... I can fully understand the problems that sites like Devart and WC have... just the volume of &quot;observers&quot; is enough, but when you put that into downloads &quot;when they don&acute;t even have the program, or the slightest idea of how to apply it&quot;... then you have a LOT of WASTED bandwidth... As far as this having an effect on &quot;sister sites&quot; It won&acute;t effect them in the way it effects the &quot;host&quot; site... Take that for what it is worth... <br /> <br />As for the :snow he has a great range in his personality, and Skinbase is lucky to have him.. He certainly has a true love of the art of skinning.. hence his site and all of the work he puts into it... There is no other person in the community that would take on such a task... Bravo.. :snow <br /> <br />I do agree with you whole heartedly that the skinning community is fragile... more so than most realize... and &quot;something&quot; should be done to correct that situation ASAP.. By BOTH... the skinner and the programmer... then the site owners.... <br /> <br />Orion, I agree with you, in the way a wallpaper is approached by the artiest and the work that goes into its&acute; creation... I also know how much patience and understanding of individual graphics goes into skinning a program or application.. I don&acute;t understand them all and don&acute;t profess to know... All I know is that I or ME.. has not intention of getting into the arts and I will leave it to each of you... the Skinner and the wallpaper Artiest.. Your BOTH equally appreciated... <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

hobnobber...again...the fragility of the industry means that &acute;if&acute; the bigger sites, such as Deviantart and Wincustomize were to disappear then the demands of displaced access to the smaller sites would make the latter economically unviable....it&acute;s a real issue that needs to be appreciated by all. <br /> <br />We, as a community of skinnable proggy sites are important as a symbiotic entity. Anyone who ignores this economic reality is doomed to ultimate failure through one constraint or another. <br /> <br />What the &acute;bigger&acute; sites do is displace the heavy load that would therwise be forced upon the smaller...and they would be hit with &acute;server overload&acute; messages or similar disasters. <br /> <br />The general populace does not &acute;care&acute; where their downloads come from, provided they simply get them...so, when a site such as Wincustomize puts in place the capacity to be economically sustainable it will assist all her sister sites as well....this is simple economics and practicality...;

I say we could well do without the &quot;general populace&quot;, seeing that they only take and do not give. The whole situation of big sites being lightning deflectors for the smaller ones is so fundamentally wrong. It implies that all we do today is survive against all odds instead of living the full life that we could.

The general populace does not ´care´ where their downloads come from, provided they simply get them <br /> <br />I find that i do care, Dont know if it matters as far as the download goes but i have maybe 3 sites i give and take from

JAF,... please translate <br />and &quot;crea&quot; same to you,, SPEAK SOME NORMAL English.. There are a lot of us out here that look to your comments... BUT if they show yourselves as &quot;masters &quot; ...or IDIOTS?..........SORRY, but I know I just pissed ya both off..... BUT ..... some of us are KIND to eachother... :) that is what MAKES SKINBASE ----- THE BEST ! WE are FAMILY as I have SED many times .... IF ya dont like what I sed ,,.. OH WELL 🌙

Speak normal English? But that wouldn&acute;t be fun! Got to give my gray matter some exercise sometimes.

When you talk about the fragility of the industry and the <br />disappearance of the “bigger sites” I take that as if you are <br />representing that aspect of the discussion... If that is a correct <br />assumption, then I’ll take and represent the “smaller sites” (If <br />anyone else, with smaller site involvement or ownership would <br />like to join in, please feel free) <br /> <br />First of all let’s put this into perspective.. Should Deviantart and <br />Wincustomize disappear the demands will NOT necessarily cause <br />a burden on the “smaller sites”... Take Skinbase as an example... <br />It does not take into consideration any single proggy and has a <br />complete variety of applications for most skinners and artists to <br />“share” their works... <br /> <br /> So therefore I take your comment “We, as a community of <br />skinnnable proggy sites are important as a symbiotic entity” as <br />implying only certain application skins are of importance while <br />others are of a less desire... Not quite sure of your meaning <br />here. Most of the sites that I visit have a complete variety to <br />choose from... and are not compelled to ultimate failure for not <br />having a “ton” of uploads for a certain program... <br /> <br />When the “bigger sites” take the “heavy load” I can only assume <br />that load is for the applications they are “promoting” and can not <br />be forced upon the smaller sites... cause they are only dictated by <br />the number of uploads to those proggies... <br /> <br />When you look at the total picture of economics and practicality <br />the “general populace” WILL SURELY go where ever is <br />necessary to get the skins, icons, or whatever that SALE <br />promised them... My views of this is simple... They “paid” for <br />the right “take”... “if the shoe fits, wear it” ... If WC was to fold <br />shop... I only hope they close the cash register too.... That is <br />the one thing that would cause a server overload on the smaller <br />sites... <br /> <br />

hobnobber...sorry parts of your last post are total &acute;Greek&acute; to me....I think you&acute;ve shuffled off into an alternate language....no matter how many times I read it. <br /> <br />Let me put it another way....if all the people currently accessing Wincustomize, looking for WB skins, walls, etc were to come straight over to Skinbase, AU and any of the similarly sized sites you&acute;d find that all of them would suffer overloaded servers and go down for the count. <br />I recall that one of these sites started out of someone&acute;s bedroom with a domestic line....it may have grown since but.....currently here there are 7 members and 128 guests here at Skinbase as I type this....yet Wincustomize commonly runs at about 700 to 1000 members online at any time, day or night. Were they to be displaced and all jump over here it&acute;d be Customize.org Overload Page all over again. <br /> <br />These bigger sites are needed simply because of skinning&acute;s popularity....just as the smaller sites are vital and perfectly suited to accommodate the less-frantically-downloaded proggy skins [like my CD Stomper ones....bet ya never even seen that proggy]....;) <br /> <br />The precariousness of the skinning sites has exactly nothing to do with whether they are selective with their proggy choice or not, but with their capacity to sustain accessibility within the face of server demand and cost. <br /> <br />And just cos I just noticed it I&acute;ll have to try out the icon..... :jafo <br />

hobnobber...sorry parts of your last post are total &acute;Greek&acute; to me....I think you&acute;ve shuffled off into an alternate language....no matter how many times I read it. <br /> <br />Let me put it another way....if all the people currently accessing Wincustomize, looking for WB skins, walls, etc were to come straight over to Skinbase, AU and any of the similarly sized sites you&acute;d find that all of them would suffer overloaded servers and go down for the count. <br />I recall that one of these sites started out of someone&acute;s bedroom with a domestic line....it may have grown since but.....currently here there are 7 members and 128 guests here at Skinbase as I type this....yet Wincustomize commonly runs at about 700 to 1000 members online at any time, day or night. Were they to be displaced and all jump over here it&acute;d be Customize.org Overload Page all over again. <br /> <br />These bigger sites are needed simply because of skinning&acute;s popularity....just as the smaller sites are vital and perfectly suited to accommodate the less-frantically-downloaded proggy skins [like my CD Stomper ones....bet ya never even seen that proggy]....;) <br /> <br />The precariousness of the skinning sites has exactly nothing to do with whether they are selective with their proggy choice or not, but with their capacity to sustain accessibility within the face of server demand and cost. <br /> <br />And just cos I just noticed it I&acute;ll have to try out the icon..... :jafo <br />

Hmm speak english? I always understand crae & Jafo&acute;s english just fine, okay I confess I do have to break out the Dictionary on Jafo... hehe =)

Hey I understood his Greek too! (atleast I think so) <br /> <br />When the “bigger sites” take the “heavy load” I can only assume <br />that load is for the applications they are “promoting” <br /><b>Posted by: hobnobber</b> <br /> <br />currently here there are 7 members and 128 guests here at Skinbase as I type this....yet Wincustomize commonly runs at about 700 to 1000 members online at any time, day or night. Were they to be displaced and all jump over here it´d be Customize.org Overload Page all over again. <br /><b>Posted by: Jafo</b> <br /> <br />Jafo the only reason WC has the biggest members online is due to it being a &quot;business&quot; site ppl are as hobby said looking for the assessories to their &quot;purchase&quot; the assessories is what is the most appealing part and what makes the buyer really choose to click on the &quot;Buy&quot; or &quot;Purchase&quot; button since they know there is variety all over the place they&acute;ll be able to really enjoy much more w/ the registered versions... (course I know there are other small factors for it&acute;s large numbers of online members but that def is the main reason = &quot;customers&quot; grabbing their assesories for their purchase that they made over there) <br /> <br />If WC went down (which I doubt it obviously can survive w/ it&acute;s income) the other tiny sites would have to consider maybe narrowing the Stardock assesory sections such as WC has done w/ narrowing it&acute;s skinnable sections in the past right?

Doreen....Wincustomize has never &acute;narrowed&acute; its skinnable sections....it started with far few than it has now...and adds to it as and when appropriate. <br />As for online members, etc, I think that is more about critical mass than anything else. <br />A site needs to get to a self-perpetuating level, eg, where sufficient people are online to keep the message boards, etc ticking over regularly. <br /> <br />The problem I often have being on the &acute;right&acute; side of the world is that I either have to be burning midnight oil to be around when the majority are online or rattle around on empty boards wondering if &acute;On The Beach&acute; just happened...;) <br /> <br />Anyway, critical mass combined with graphics downloads means band-width issues, unless all your sections are like beatnik....[tiny skins]. <br /> <br />All the LiteSTEP sites suffered from a combination of popularity vs massive file sizes.....[my icon again]...:jafo

<i>Were they to be displaced and all jump over here it´d be Customize.org Overload Page all over again.</b> <br /> <br />Sorry to dissapoint you bud, but our server is quite able to handle at least X10 of the &quot;normal&quot; load :)

That self-perpetuating level reminds me of IRC. Every tiime I hop aboard, every damn channel is deserted (no, people that idle all day, like our friend the ex-truck driver don&acute;t count).

hehe exactly, snow|away and Harr|away are always there! <br /> <br />copy n paste is my friend today... <br /> <br />Doreen....Wincustomize has never ´narrowed´ its skinnable sections....it started with far few than it has now...and adds to it as and when appropriate. <br /><b>Posted by: Jafo</b> <br /> <br />yes you&acute;re right they did actually expand the sections but what I meant is WC is extra extra careful about which and what skin sections they host to keep things light over there, therefore since WC gets hit so hard for their assesories if they went down, and the herd came stampeding over here killing this site for Stardock assessories the only solution would be to rid those sections that bring too much traffic over here and keep the little light stampeeds that come for the other skins which don&acute;t have as much popularity maybe...

course that would be very bad for Stardocks business so WC needs to stay up and host those skins for their apps or I think they would have a slowdown in sales (not much but maybe a small noticable one, I don&acute;t know)

GIBBERISH!

care to elaborate on that genius opinion of yours, sed?

Sorry if you thought I was talking in “Greek” .... No offense <br />intended to my friends here at Skinbase... <br /> <br />Let me clarify my position... I thought I made it clear on my first <br />post... The way you boasted as you came into this thread, was to let <br />all of us “uninformed” users of certain programs that “we have to be <br />enlightened to” the consequences... should the “parent” of “certain” <br />programs suddenly disappear from the scene... <br /> <br />Well... I for one, will tell you that it makes no difference to me if <br />WC “disappears” and all of the programs that “Its” parent company <br />creates!!!! Stardock, and the way you seem to “represent” that <br />company and its affiliated programs and public web sites, will, <br />sooner or later, find that there are MANY other programs that are <br />skinnable... and many of the artiest here in the “community” prefer <br />to skin the majority of those applications and NOT necessarily those <br />programs that you seem to represent.... I have also noted that WC <br />has boasted about the number of members and guests on line at a <br />given time... but is the ONLY site that does not give that information <br />to the current viewer by “online” status.. I can only wonder... <br />WHY.... <br /> <br />If I were the proprietor of a “small site” and should the “bigger sites” <br />fold up... How much time do think it will take me to REMOVE <br />those categories from my list??? 2 minutes??? because I’m a slow <br />typeset... maybe... Now as an owner.... How much do you think I <br />should CHARGE for those categories to be re-instated??? <br />HMMMMMM......

I&acute;d just like to applaud in my corner.

Good game of pingpong {:p :9

hobnobber...strangely [or perhaps not] I was quite cordial and perhaps just a little informative in my posts in this thread...and at no time was snide or accusatorily vindictive which &acute;appears&acute; to be your wont. <br /> <br />Civility seems to be sadly lacking at times. <br /> <br />I&acute;ll refrain in any future attempt to engage in a mature, adult conversation with you. <br /> <br />Just pretend I don&acute;t exist.

I thought you were quite cordial (me goes to get the dictionary for the cordial, snide, accusatorily and vindictive words) hehe =) <br /> <br />Jafo: I myself anyways did not think you were too informative or said much most don&acute;t already know, and as far as WC goes Brad is a Brillant Business man he will take care of that site I&acute;m sure, cuz it&acute;s a great site and has lots of good ppl hanging out on it... =) <br />

the good <br />the bad <br />and the ugly <br /> <br />every site has them, from what I can see, the people posting in this topic are niether bad or ugly. I cant stand WC, but I know there are good people there. <br />I love SB, but I know there are less then good people here. <br />I have no idea what my point is, But, there is one here somewhere. Doreen, you you are hilarious! (in a good way)

I didn&acute;t bother to read any of this thread but since it&acute;s titled &acute;DeviantArt&acute;, I&acute;ll just say that I&acute;m proud to be a member there... :] <br />And I&acute;m proud to be a member here as well.... yippee... :)

Jafo, when you made the statement that I was talking Greek, I took that as an accusatory snide remark from you. As far as implying that I am a vindictive person is uncalled for, I hold no vengeance toward any Site, Company, or Person that I have had contact with while on the Internet, including the ones mentioned in this thread. Could it be that you are putting more into my responses than I have typed? <br /> <br />I have found over the years that every discussion, debate, or conversation has alternatives. When one creates the subject, they should be prepared for those alternative remarks and accept them as they are said, and not the way you want to interpret them. In any case they should be answered, even if just to clarify there meanings. <br /> <br />Granted, when I made the statement in my last post, I probably stroked the keys a lot harder than usual, but that did not change the thought of it. I was merely giving you and the proprietors of the smaller sites an alternate solution should the bigger sites disappear. If that rubbed you wrong, so be it, but don&acute;t put your thoughts of my statements in a derogatory remark and then try to justify it with another. <br /> <br />If you are serious in your last sentence, I can abide by your wishes. However, I don&acute;t think it is the adult thing to do. <br />

gee, can&acute;t we all just get along? <br /> <br />lol <br /> <br /> ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ <br /> <br />and maybe some 🍺 :sangria will help ;)

hobnobber.....the phrase &acute;talking Greek&acute; means implicitly that the meaning of the words could not be communicated or reasonably interpreted. The other term, less polite is &acute;jibberish&acute;. <br />I read it 3 times and could not understand it...not for the want of intelligence on my part but for the lucid communication on yours. <br />It was not snide, but actually a friendly method of saying &acute;what did you just say?&acute;. Clearly lost in transit...for that you have my apology. <br /> <br />However...&quot;The way you boasted as you came into this thread, was to let <br />all of us “uninformed” users of certain programs that “we have to be <br />enlightened to” the consequences... &quot; is both snide and vindictive in phrase, grammar and intent...or will it be a case of me beating the crap out of my English Expression teachers for giving me a bum steer? <br />In my book, &acute;boasted&acute;, &acute;uninformed&acute; and &acute;have to be enlightened&acute; are inflamatory in their use, context and intent. <br /> <br />Quite frankly I don&acute;t care to waste my life doing any or either of those with you or anyone else for that matter. <br />I have better things to do. [I&acute;ll use my icon again as a palliative]... :jafo <br />

the bandwidth whine is getting old ... wasn´t it more than two years ago it started and still WC has not shut it´s doors? overall StarDock as a company doesn´t do that bad economically.
if WC ever closes due to bandwidth (what will not happen) and the burden gets too heavy for the smaller sites (what will not happen as much as predicted, due to user unawareness) it would be more than easy to remove the sections for Stardock apps and everything will get back to normal.

if any site wants to charge for it´s services, fine. i don´t really care if skinning gets an expensive hobby for other people, i use my own skins almost exclusively. the only thing would be Winamp skins and i never heard anyone at Winamp.com (still the skin site with the highest traffic and bandwith use by far) whining about bandwidth use anyways.

moshi....the &acute;bandwidth whine&acute; was about Deviantart.com...read the topic.

moshi....the &acute;bandwidth whine&acute; was about Deviantart.com...read the topic.

There&acute;s an echo in here.... :jafo

much of the thread was about bigger sites and the amount of &quot;skin bandwidth usage&quot; though. while dA is big it doesn´t carry too much of this burden, it´s more about ... well ... other things that are considered to be &quot;art&quot; by many. <br /> <br />but ok, back on topic: did the search function at dA work correctly anyways in the last 24 months? at least it never did for me. the libraries also seem to be completely screwed ...

Winamp is owend by AOL. I would imagine that they can afford their bandwidth. <br /> <br />I don&acute;t see too much bandwidth whining going on by sites these days. I myself have long since concluded that the solution is to simply make those who are using a lot of the bandwidth pay for their share. <br /> <br />That is why WinCustomize is still up. After 50 to 100 megabytes of downloads, the user has to either register one of the SD programs, become a paid subscriber, or start contributing to the community in the form of help on forums, skins, themes, icons, whatever. If they aren&acute;t willing to do any of the above they can&acute;t download anymore. <br /> <br />The system has worked pretty well. In the long term though, skinning is growing up. Good skins are taking increasingly onger times to create. I think you will see more commercialism in the future not less with skin authors finaly able to start being able to get some income from their work too if they want. <br /> <br />deviantART is ahead on dealing with these issues because it is more popular than any of the other sites in terms of monthly users (~3 million for dA I&acute;d guess vs. ~2 million for WinCustomize each month). Programs like Alexa.com make it pretty easy to get a gauge of how popular a given site is btw.

&quot;I think you will see more commercialism in the future not less&quot; <br /> <br />more and less as well. just as in software. contrary to your &quot;i can understand that people dislike StarDock, because there is no good freeware anymore&quot; article last year, there is plenty of good freeware around. i´m thinking of Samurize or Rainy´s apps for example. <br />the Blackbox branch of shell replacements even does window skinning now. one reason for me not to use WB is that annoying bug of MDI window titlebars moving under the menubar in Photoshop. when using the bbleanskin engine this does not happen and even MDI windows are skinned. <br />so the only real plus of commercial software is the ease of use (what, at least in SD´s case seem to go hand in hand with bad documentation, which of course does not matter to the vast majority as reading seems to be pretty umpopular nowadays). <br /> <br />interesting to watch will be sponsoring though as it already happens in Winamp or WMP with companies that hire skinners as Petrol Designs or The Skinsfactory. you once wrote that &quot;many&quot; filmstudios use DesktopX now (i only know of one, and don´t see why any studio would prefer it over Flash where are 100 if not 1000 times more and better skilled designers and programmers). still this could offer some interesting projects in the future. <br /> <br />well, will be interesting to watch. personally i have more enjoyable hobbies to waste my money on though.

Frogboy says: That is why WinCustomize is still up. After 50 to 100 megabytes of downloads, the user has to either register one of the SD programs, become a paid subscriber, or start contributing to the community in the form of help on forums, skins, themes, icons, whatever. If they aren´t willing to do any of the above they can´t download anymore. <br /> <br />Sorry oldman but What you say and what reality is are apparently 2 different things. <br />WC needs money like winamp needs money. AOL is bigger then Stardock but Stardock can afford to do alot more then you say. <br /> <br />Its an obnoxious site that never stops to amaze me. It treats people that support it like bugs, it begs for money and when it gets it, it wants more and more. Stardock could give away its apps for free and STILL make money. So dont give me that crap. The very people who support it anre made to pay over and over again. Maybe not you as your in &quot;management&quot; or something over there. I know since I have been subject to buying Stardock products and still am forced to buy......buy.........buy.........I dont know who is learning from who, Stardock from Microsoft or the other way around. <br />Frogboy, WC does not belong in this type of community. Just as Microsoft does not. You all need to start getting honest and start saying what it is rather then comming here to defend and undefendable situation. <br /> <br />Its a corporate entity that leeches of of skinners to make money. Period. No fancy makeup is gonna change that. <br />Skinning communities started free and should remain so. WC should go over and setup shop at PCWorld or CNET and then it would be legit. But you insult us by even mentioning WC here. <br />People, real skinners, dont do it for money, never did. <br /> <br />As far as winamp goes, wtf? <br />Take your WC and go stuff it up Bill Gates other hole!!

yo Orion, cool it. So far this thread has been kept clean and &quot;childproof&quot;. <br />There are no need for crappy comments like that! <br /> <br />Dunno about the rest, but I have the feeling that you have absolutely no idea how the real world is run! <br /> <br />Dont you pay for what you eat, drink etc etc?! <br /> <br />Just because these people happen to make software doesnt mean that they have to work for free!!! Cause that <b>is</b> what you are suggesting they should! <br /> <br /> <br />So lighten up, one more post like that and this thread will be closed without any further warning - and any other thread of this sort, you might start in the future!

Moshi: I agree with your statement on Freeware btw. When I wrote that post Samurize and Rainlendar either didn&acute;t exist or were so obscure no one had heard. <br /> <br />I would argue that we are seeing a re-emergence of freeware. But in terms of websites, which is what this topic is on, you will see more commercialism I believe, not less. <br /> <br />Orion: I&acute;m pretty familiar with what Stardock can and can&acute;t afford. <br /> <br />If you dislike capitalism, there is nothing stopping you from going and trying to provide alternatives. <br /> <br />Incidentally, # of skins Orion has released on Skinbase: 0. <br /> <br />Single largest provider of popular freeware skinning programs: Stardock (PocketBlinds, BootSkin, LogonStudio, CursorXP) (in downloads per week).

Moshi: I agree with your statement on Freeware btw. When I wrote that post Samurize and Rainlendar either didn&acute;t exist or were so obscure no one had heard. <br /> <br />I would argue that we are seeing a re-emergence of freeware. But in terms of websites, which is what this topic is on, you will see more commercialism I believe, not less. <br /> <br />Orion: I&acute;m pretty familiar with what Stardock can and can&acute;t afford. <br /> <br />If you dislike capitalism, there is nothing stopping you from going and trying to provide alternatives. <br /> <br />Incidentally, # of skins Orion has released on Skinbase: 0. <br /> <br />Single largest provider of popular freeware skinning programs: Stardock (PocketBlinds, BootSkin, LogonStudio, CursorXP) (in downloads per week).

i dont&acute; have a whole lot to say about this topic myself. <br /> <br />i know that programmers need money. SD needs money. SD can get money through WC. BIG HAIRY DEAL. <br /> <br />if you don&acute;t agree with it, fine, don&acute;t be a jerk. there are plenty of free alternatives. <br /> <br />snowman has a point, you have to pay for everything else, why should it be a shock to pay for a skin site emmbership or for programs or for skins? i believe we all hpoe that the whole community won&acute;t become a pay-to-play atmosphere, but you can&acute;t pay your electricity bill with skins. <br /> <br />as a final note, i hope that we all can keep this discussion at a mature level without making any personal attacks. please heed snowman&acute;s warning and act like the adults i know you are capable of being.