scarebear
Member
OP
That your vote? ;)
It´s just a patch!
By grimspoon
1,820 views
82 replies
grimspoon
Member
yeah Jason, I think I was the first or the second user to vote like that ----^
elwin
Member
I say go for it! <BR> <BR>´Course, I don´t have XP, and I like Windowblinds just fine, but if you guys want to patch Style Builder to circumvent TGT Soft´s right to protect their program, I´m behind you all the way! <BR>WhooHoo! <BR> <BR>Oh, wait. <BR>You were talking about cracking TGT Soft´s program right? <BR>Wasn´t that the "patch" you were talking about? <BR>Darn. <BR>Nevermind.... <BR> <BR>:moon <BR>{:p <BR>
scarebear
Member
Evil Elwin strikes again! :)
plastic
Member
Ever took a look in the MacIntosh customization scene ? Flourishing since day 1, and it centers around one basic tool, ResEdit. It´s much like Resource Hacker for Windows, it´s lets you edit (system) files. It´s considered a good way to customize your system there, and it was the unavailability of tools like that for Windows (until Resource Hacker showed up more than a year ago, thought here was some tools before that) that made us think customization was just about skinning and editing the registry/.ini files. Not valid, not legal, forbidden by them knowing the truth at Stardock ?! Come on, it´s my box, and it´s my sport to change anything in Windows I would want. I change icons in system files and more, and if I need a patch to get into the theming engine of XP, I will. If TGT wants to charge for a patch, I´ll try to document and make it reproducable for free. Problably someone knowing more will do before I even comprehend... <BR> <BR>This fuzz around is completely not understood by me, and I can´t really comprehend why all these people are talking about it being illegal, when no-one ever bothered before (excluding Jafo here, he´s been fighting napster and clones since forever) - thus doubting intentions around, mucho.
elwin
Member
Actually, Plastic - all joking aside - I see even more happening than that. <BR>If I were a betting man, I´d bet a pretty penny that before the end of 2001, someone will release a skin builder for XP incorporating the "patch", and distributing it for FREE... <BR>I may be wrong, but you know better than I how fiercely independent the skinning community can be.
plastic
Member
Elwin, aside of what Stardock wants you to believe - theming format is wáaay complicated and that StyleBuilder tool, is just plain good/advanced. It doesn´t let me compile (heh, beta), but it´s impressive, and if anyone wants to debate their/TGT PR, that´s ok (just analyze SD too), but just don´t doubt their results. I doubt a free version will pop up. <BR> <BR>So, that leaves me with the challenge to get it done for free. Document the patch, have it available, but foremost, the instructions to do something more than the recoloring we´ve seen now... that might just turn out into a surrender, honestly. Seen a .msstyle file ? Skinning K-jöfol was easy compared to that. <BR> <BR>Like paxx said somewhere else, no StyleXP section needed, but a MSStyle section is valid. It´s a patch to be able to have them running, but a good, edited .msstyle file is as much a skin as anything else. And if debating this in detail, there´s a powerarchiver section here too. Skinning (?), it does the toolbar icons; this does a little bit more. <BR> <BR>Last, and very personal. "..how fiercely independent the skinning community can be" ?! Skinning community is about fighting, me thinks. The joy of controversy. Imho, sick, and I´m kinda done with it (judging this post, not completely...). As immature as they are, sites like neowin.net and, more mature, littlewhitedog.com take the info for what it is and explore the options, instead of debating every little bit for being valid or something.
elwin
Member
"Seen a .msstyle file ? Skinning K-jöfol was easy compared to that." <BR>Bravo! <BR>Terms I can understand... :) <BR> <BR>And concerning your last paragraph, I would tend to agree with it too. <BR>Which is why I migrated to Skinbase. Of all the skin sites that exist at the moment, I´ve found the least amount of strife here. <BR> <BR>(And talking of controversial software, show me another skin site besides this one that would put up a section for Customeyes? I´m sure you remember that little discussion on skinz.org MB. <BR>But then again, show me someone besides me and Scarebear that made skins for it...) <BR>:) <BR> <BR>"Because skinning SHOULD be fun!"
chichigirl46
Member
I think its really to early to vote, but I already did.... I think in time the TGTsoft will fizzle or if not shut down by MSoft. Its very plain what it is and what it does.... I have had my ups and downs in the skinning community, BUT PLEASE don´t ever change what WBlinds program can do, I´m able to do just about anything I would like on my computer, whether the look of an OS or loaded with Eye Candy, its a GREAT program for anyone. Those who put WBlinds down because it crash´s there programs, they need to maintance there computer better and find out if the programs are compatable or they just have to damn many windows open he hee......
frogboy
Member
Regarding freeware vs. payware: <BR> <BR>It´s definitely a tough issue because it does seem like every aspect of our society is commercialized. You can´t go anywhere without someone trying to sell you something. It´s only a matter of time before the night sky is covered in billboards. :( <BR> <BR>Then you go into customizing your computer and everywhere you turn around, someone is turning what seems like should just be a fun hobby into yet another way to make a buck. This is the sort of thing that causes people to get upset with Stardock and in turn me since I´m the most visible avatar of it. Here we have this great community of people who freely give of themselves and then there´s companies who seem like they make a living leeching off the works of these freely giving people. <BR> <BR>That´s the perception anyway. The reality works out more like this, you have people that are so into this sort of thing that they want to spend all their time on it. But at some point, they have to reach a decision, do they limit how mcuh time they can spend on it so that they can go and have a seperate job or do they find a way to make enough money to pay the bills doing what they already do. That´s pretty much what Stardock does. <BR> <BR>It´s kind of subtle but have you ever noticed that Stardock´s main apps don´t time out? WindowBlinds, DesktopX, IconPackager work forever. They´re effectively freeware. What you actually pay for is to have features beyond what´s in there. If someone wrote a freeware program called CustomGUI and it had ALL the features of WindowBlinds shareware, people would be happy right? <BR> <BR>So the Stardock philosophy is basically that 99% of the users will be satisfied with the free version and 1% will pay the $20 to get more features. None of us have fancy houses or cars, but that 1% is enough to pay the bills and allow us to work full time on it instead of only having time for a few hours a week after spending a day coding financial analysis software or machinery diagnostic software. 8|p
plastic
Member
Heya frogboy, my anti-stardock hat is long gone (yes, I had one, like more than a year back or something). Not up to any debate, just a couple of things: <BR> <BR>- every OS I bought from MS, I modified. That´s the whole fun, that about the only thing I do on that computer, besides chat. I don´t know about their legal rights etc, it´s about the fun. Not willing to get into advanced mode here, I wouldn´t like it anymore. <BR> <BR>- TGT is of no importance here, besides two little things. They did the patch (it´s out and will be there), and they did the stylebuilder thing. Have you checked (?), it´s good. You´ve seen what they will charge, and that, compared to what you pay for an enhanced Wb, doesn´t make a tough choice. Rationally, people would subscribe for OD or something. About as cheap, more options and lots of predefined themes available (which is good because it´s a hard job creating a msstyle theme). So, there´s some people thinking they rule the world cause them beta´s are free, and they think they´ll get what Wb has to offer for free (i know i know, it is "free"). And there´s some others carefully storing those betas, so they can use them again. That would be me, setting myself apart from a crowd like say at neowin.net. For them it´s a choice between cracking (Wb) and using a recolored version of a theme. Let them, never your audience anyway. <BR> <BR>Me, you know I won´t register. I won´t use it unregistered too. Girl wants panekiller, sure, but that will be paid for. I won´t fight it either. Just two choices, and I´m representing one. I"ll explore the options and make my own msstyle theme. <BR> <BR>I don´t really get the stuff on Stardock being insulted, but if you feel that way, ok. I do get the stuff concerning l0c, but if we´re gonna call people nazi or whatever, that´s easily categorized imho - what IS his age (really dunno, but get some impression)... this meaning, why not just ignore ? That coming with the side-comment your "defense" all around just makes it worse. Your first post on this thread just made me think, "oh he did it here too". Now there´s gonna be a war here too. Really nice it ain´t that way, but please, what you´re saying about those guys (tgt), nót discussing what is true or whatever, is feeding responses that get more irrational every day. On the other hand, words by the SD loyal crew (grown and getting fanatic) are getting equally irrational, and we´re looking at a plain war. So every word by you just heats up the fires anyway. <BR> <BR>I´m not saying you should keep your mouth shut, just ignore the bad stuff, and ignore tgt. Defending MS legal rights is just gonna make you look bad. <BR> <BR>Once more, I´m not up to a debate on words and what was said by whom or whatever. I refuse to judge anything by the letter, I just do it on feel, and this is in the afterdays of the fight anyhow, I´m hoping... <BR> <BR>Scarebear, while I am porting an eFX skin (unreleased, by myself) to a msstyle theme, your judgement and/or the screenshots isn´t right. I´ve never looked into Wb format, but it at least comes close. Lacks some options, but still. Example, in eFX the close button is one .bmp. In an msstyle file there´s a .png/.bmp bitstrip with 8 versions of the background, plus 5 bitstrips for each buttonsize. It´s advanced, and I´ve gotta admit I´m enjoying it.
frogboy
Member
The genie is out of the bottle. If they tried to charge for it, *I* would write a patch. My issue with Style XP was (past tense) that TGTSoft was clearly trying to imply that it was a skinning program. <BR> <BR>I´m no Microsoft fan but one has to give credit where credit is due, if you like/dislike msstyles, the credit goes to Microsoft, not TGTSoft. That said, I don´t know how long it´ll last. Microsoft is likely to "Fix" it so that in Service pack 1 or 2 you won´t be able to use anything but Microsoft certified msstyles again. <BR> <BR>8|p
redllar
Member
lol frogboy, not that it will do any good; but, you did ask: <BR> <BR>1. What TGTSoft did (crack the dll) is a non-issue. <BR>2. The fact that they are distributing it is, but that is MS´s concern only. <BR>3. The recent judicial ruling could very easily be looked upon as a sign that MS will be softening their "this is my OS, do not touch" approach, which is directly applicable to putting copy protection in a dll that serves little purpose other than for presentation. <BR>4. Putting Nullsoft/545 in MS´s place is just a bad analogy and does not apply. Apples and oranges. <BR>5. As mentioned in the past, making use of one app´s formatted file(s) in another app happens all the time; 1-2-3/Excel, Word/WP, DBF/Access, PSP/PS plugins, ... The examples are limitless and neither copyright nor any other commerical law is applicable. <BR>6. I see no mention of "greedy Stardock" in any post on this thread. You must be carrying around a lot of baggage from other "discussions?" <BR>7. You deride(?) TGTSoft for their attacks on you/Stardock but yet in your 13.11.2001 @ 19:41:05 post you imply that you have knowledge as to why they are distributing the cracked version of the dll. <BR>8. #7, and wording such as in your 2nd paragraph of your 3:26:11 post are why you come across as divisive. <BR> <BR>I have more, but it´s getting late and I have the flu and I don´t even like XP. <BR> <BR>"Your inability to comprehend has no bearing on my ability to confuscate."
integer
Member
Hrm...just as I was starting to calm down. I don´t see how msstyles are getting special treatment, and I don´t remember TGTSoft taking credit for msstyles - in fact in the interview at DA, they specifically state that it is microsoft´s work. Brad, using your 545 Studio´s analogy - if this had happened to any other software developers - would you be making such a big issue of it? <BR> <BR>(just making some points, not trying to start a war)
frogboy
Member
1) I agree. <BR>2) I agree. <BR>3) Disagree. MS didn´t put that protection in for monopolistic reasons, they put it in for support reasons. That said, if someone wants to use a crack on their system DLLs, it´s their system, they should be able to do so. <BR> <BR>4) Disagree. Nullsoft is owned by AOL/Time Warner now. There is nothing stopping TGTSoft or any other company from coming up with their own format that uses XP´s skinning engine. <BR> <BR>5) Disagree but don´t want to debate this. Internet legal debates are pointless. ;) <BR> <BR>6) Mucho baggage. There is a general tendancy in my experience recently on this topic for people to read far more into what I write. Instead of seeing this as an ethics debate, they see it as company A trying to hold down competitor which is not the case. <BR> <BR>7) I did not deride TGTSoft. However, I do think it bad for them to make *personal* attacks on me. Frogboy!=Stardock. Stradock > 20 people. Secondly, TGTSoft is an LLC - a for profit company like Stardock, Microsoft, etc. They sell a skin editor. It doesn´t take a leap of faith to assume that they put out the crack in order to sell the skin editor. <BR> <BR>8) I see your point. However, I think given how much abuse I´ve taken over the last month (see l0c´s attacks on me on Skinz.org - have I ever flamed l0c? No) I think one could see why I would tend to be a little sensitive on that. There has been, in my opinion anyway, an undercurrent of opinion that capitalism and ethics don´t mix. And therefore, since I write software that is made to be sold, all that I write is viewed through a different standard. Even my skin primer was criticized as just "Stardock" propaganda. <BR> <BR>Re Integer: <BR>We should all be calm. ;) We are having an intellectual discussion on an abstract issue. It is good that we live in a world where we can talk about these things freely as friends. <BR> <BR>With that said, second paragraph of TGTSoft interview: <BR> <BR>"Style XP also works more seamlessly with the theme-ing concept built into Windows XP. Moreover, Style XP also properly supports the new theme-ing API in Windows XP whereas WindowBlinds only operates in Classic Mode, and thus does not support it at all. Style XP inherently also handles legacy window apps better, large fonts, extra large fonts, and high resolution DPI screens." <BR> <BR>This clearly implies that Stlye XP is some sort of application that performs very specific actions. Style XP doesn´t support any APIs, theming or otherwise because it´s not an application. Now if you don´t see their paragraph above as misleading, then we should just table this discussion entirely. :)
craeonics
Member
Random thoughts: <BR>1. TGTSoft are misleading, yes <BR>2. perceptually, frogboy == Stardock. Yeah, I know people shouldn´t be doing that, but that´s how it is seen. Can´t change that. <BR>3. Didn´t WinAmp skinning start with hacking files? <BR>4. And isn´t modification of your system by hacking files a license violation? <BR>5. This site is the only site where this canbe discussed without flames intelligently. is that good or bad?
frogboy
Member
5) Yea, I really like the mellow, calm feel. We are, afterall, discussing/debating issues that are pretty far from life and death. And as long as we all remember that we´re friends in the virtual sense it´s okay. <BR> <BR>4) Not sure. I just tend to think people should be able to do so. Though it´s definitely a tricky issue. Let´s say that Microsoft wanted to sell skins down the line. Then Style XP becomes just a crack no different than those cracks you see for disabling copy protection in games. Sure, it might be crummy for Microsoft to do that in some people´s eyes but it is their intellectual property. <BR> <BR>3) I don´t know about WinAmp´s ultimate origin. ;) <BR> <BR>2) I agree. The issue then rises that even if Brad=agent of Stardock, does that mean that Stardock is somehow bad? The history in deeds of Stardock seems to be pretty good. We hire right from the skin community. We´ve put up a skin site (contrary to what some people think, WinCustomize is not a marketing ploy). And we try to be active in the community. We´re not the only company or even the biggest company to be involved in the skinning world (Nullsoft is part of AOL afterall) but you don´t often see direct participation by others. <BR> <BR>This really is a great message board.
scarebear
Member
It´s hard for me to get too involved in this thread (not just here but on other sites as well) as I don´t have XP. And honestly I don´t see the big deal with what the program does. <BR> <BR>Does it allow you to alter anything more than say eFX does? Judging from the screenshots I´ve seen of it, it looks like it doesn´t. Putting the whole legal/not legal issue aside for a moment, what makes it so special that I´m missing?
doreen
Member
/no time to read all this at this moment but if it don´t animate the windows then I prob won´t care for it... <BR>me needs action when I play w/ my windowblinds, not just color <BR>(I did not get a mean machine just to look at pretty colored windows) <BR> <BR>windowblinds really has no competition cept Chroma at this time and Chroma is alittle stagnant and hard to skin so wb is really up front, till they get busy again...
frogboy
Member
One last note for the evening: I hope I don´t come across as too defensive. It just seems like lately, anytime I do anything people try to view it as some sort of marketing or propaganda thing rather thing. <BR> <BR>Plastic: I don´t think I´ve ever been divisive (not purposely). I´ve never said anything ill about Chroma or eFX in all the years I´ve been around. And I´ve really tried to help freeware programs like Litestep, CoolPlayer, ICQPlus. But I think you would agree that I´ve always considered skin formats to be as sacred as skins themselves. <BR> <BR>Okay, Buffy time.
grimspoon
Member
since we launched at pixelprintz I have to aggree with the 1% part.. it will be a while before we can pay the bills tho ;)
Gregor Klevže
Member
And you know whats the funniest thing? <BR>If you will buy new car and then someone who payed you $20 going to see you in the new car, He will start talking: ´cause of me he can drive new car. <BR>Theoretical is that true, but no one count how many time and money you have to spend for learning, programming, etc. I know that from experience, because I was driving a good cars years ago :) <BR>I wasnt suprised when I received message over the IRC few months ago, something like that: support that application on Skinbase even if Frogboy offer you some money for not supporting it :) <BR>Opss... I think I have to return to subject of this thread :) <BR>I dont believe that Microsoft support the patch which will remove some kind of their protection. It´s not there without any reason. <BR>:grave
paxx
Member
Microsoft will not patch the patch. From what I understand they couldn´t care less about it. The reason they protected the themes is that they didn´t want to have the tech support hassle from badly done themes. With Style XP, a third party product, they can wash their hands and tell people "Hey, you´re the one who installed that product, now deal with it". <BR> <BR>As for the Stardock issue, I don´t consider Stardock a gready company who´s president drives a new car with the money I gave him. Stardock is a small company, and I like small companies. Unlike Microsoft...
frogboy
Member
With regards to the patch, Microsoft certainly does care. I´ve talked to them. They have told TGTSoft that they don´t approve of what they´ve done. <BR> <BR>Maybe it´s because I don´t consider Microsoft "evil" but the whole msstyles section just seems pretty clear to me: <BR> <BR>If Nullsoft or 545 Studios or any other developer came out with a program that only allowed Nullsoft to provide skins and someone cracked it so that you could make your own, there´d be no question - no way would such a section get added. I don´t see why some people are arguing that msstyles should get special treatment. <BR> <BR>Our free version of ObjectBar doesn´t allow people to use other skins other than what comes with it. If someone releases a crack for that, would I have to worry about my friends in the skinning community supports skins that take advantage of that crack? <BR> <BR>I´m no big fan of Microsoft but I don´t see why their rights are less valid than Nullsoft´s, 545´s, or Stardock´s. It is important to remember that Style XP is, ultimately, a copy protection crack. Not released for the "betterment" of society but so that they can make money selling a skin editor for a skin format they have nothing to do with. <BR> <BR>But one thing I can´t do, both from an ethical point of view and from a business point of view, is allow TGTSoft to get away implying that Microsoft is okay with what they´ve done. I´ve got the email from managers at the shell team. If MS were "okay" with it, we´d have WB and SkinStudio support msstyles so fast it would make one´s head spin. ;) (BTW, we´ve reported warez sites to MS too before and they´ve not shut down those sites, that doesn´t mean MS approves of warez <grin>). <BR> <BR>Microsoft will almost certainly make it so that the patch doesn´t work. in future service packs. Especially as the support issue grows. But that´s totally besides the point, msstyles shouldn´t get special treatment.
plastic
Member
Two lenghty replies made up and wiped again (involving startup screens needing a hack (how about them, evil too ? - there´s sections for those) and the fun of resource editing...), but it doesn´t cut it, I´d just go along and take the invitation to make war. I won´t, or have I ? I dunno, frogboy, you feel like dividing what´s left of this communty in two ? I get that impresssion, lately.
redllar
Member
MS is not, and never has been, part of the skinning community. In fact, w/XP, it´s harder than ever to customize.
mel
Member
No man can serve two masters : for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
beaker
Member
Point 1: Exactly redllar, M$ has gone out of their way to make it harder (startup screens npw an embedded resource in dll files, M$´s version of ´skinning´ requires their approval). <BR> <BR>Point 2: I don´t doubt that Brad truly believes that TGT is in the wrong, if he´s one thing, it´s consistent, but it´s come to the point I question anything he posts. If you ask me, StylesXP allows what should have been allowed right out of the box - even if it´s via a hack. However, this is my opinion, no more right or wrong than Brad´s. I just hate to see this turn into a pissing match. Why can´t we agree that there are several alternatives to customizing one´s box? My own slant is to shy away from 3rd party apps when you can alter the core OS to preserve system resources for OS-related stuff. Agin, no more right or wrong than the next guy´s. but it´s my own approach. (and dammit - I´m right!! :) ) There are other solutions than ours...
frogboy
Member
Guys, please re-read what I said above without the "Brad is evil agent of Stardock" hats on. <BR> <BR>Replace Microsoft with Nullsoft or 545 Studios. <BR> <BR>Would people still advocate putting up a section? I don´t think they would. <BR> <BR>It sure gets frustrating having anything I write being read so negatively. If anyone else posted what I wrote I think people would see the logic and reason in it. :(
frogboy
Member
BTW since people seem to not understand this: I DO NOT THINK MSSTYLES ARE EVIL OR BAD. <BR> <BR>I just don´t think they should be given special treatment either. And I don´t like people implying something I know not to be true. When I say Microsoft doesn´t approve of people making msstyles files, I´m not speaking theoretically. And if some freeware author make a skinning program that only could use authorized skins and someone made a crack that let unauthorized skins, no skin site would support that. And if I´m wrong on that then I am obviously clueless as to what the ethics of the skinning community is. <BR> <BR>Now if someone disagrees, could they PLEASE for once put together a rational argument that doesn´t involve "Oh you just feel that way because you´re a greedy capitalist" argument? <BR> <BR>I´m in favor of as many alternatives as possible because I am in this thing because I like to do cool things to my computer.
integer
Member
To be honest Paxx - Im only using freeware as a "divider". What I´d really like to do is support Joe programmer who´s sat at home coding stuff for the hell of it, but theres no real way of distinguishing that. Theres a lot of good apps that are payware, and come from Joe Programmer, but if there is going to be a site of this nature, theres got to be a well-defined cut-off point to prevent all sorts of political war-mongering - the very thing that I´m trying to break free from. Can you imagine trying to define who is a "small developer" and who´s not? It would cause more havoc than there is at present :) Thanks for your thoughts Paxx - glad to see your still talking to me :p <BR>So, if theres any like minded folks here that know a bit of PHP - please raise your right arm :)
grimspoon
Member
Well guys, regardless what more informed members of the community know or think.. the good people of skinbase have made their choice! <BR> <BR>The correct answer is: <BR>´Sure, it alters XP´
grimspoon
Member
or.. ´gimme, gimme, I want a new toy!´ :evil
paxx
Member
My answer is why not, but don´t call it StyleXP, call it MSSTYLE.
integer
Member
Well, i´m pretty tired of the whole damn thing - I let myself get dragged into the crap at DA, and I´m so pissed at myself for doing so. I feel like ranting and raving at everyone and everything just to make myself feel better, but that wouldn´t do any good either. <BR>People have been saying that XP is going to bring skinning to the masses, but it only seems to be acting as a battlefield, where the fighters are people that have co-existed peacefully for years, and I´m ashamed to say that I´ve let myself become one of them. <BR>Why does everything have to become so commercialised? I know the answer to this question, but it´s so frustrating not being able to do anything about it. If I had the resources I´d start a skinning site that only hosted freeware apps, and provided support for the small developers by providing a beta tester area - thats how much it´s getting to me. It´s only sites like Skinbase that are keeping me here at the moment. Some of you probably think I´m a jerk for letting myself get sucked into it all - well, I´d have to agree with you. I might take a break before I lose too many of the people I have grown to respect over the last 4 years or so, but that would seem like the cowards way out - I wanna stay and fight to support sites like this. <BR>Plastic - thanks for your respect you´ve shown me on the various boards recently, I appreciate it. Your site epitomises the way the skinning scene should be, and you have my utmost admiration for voicing your opinions without letting your emotions getting the better of you. <BR>Thats my personal drama over with, and I feel better just for getting off my chest - and props to the admins here for providing me with somewhere to do it. <BR>Oh, and what I was saying about a freeware skinning site - I was serious, I´d love to do it - anyone?
craeonics
Member
/me tosses in the usual comment <BR> <BR>"Some people take these things way too serious (and personal)"
plastic
Member
Integer, I feel the struggle, and while you may not have been able to keep your emotions out, you´ve kept respect for people, which was why your comments rose above the struggle for me. But I´ve been ranting to the fellows at VP, in private, still (extremely) mad at frogboy and others for letting this happen, simply because it involves my home(s) at the internet, and I don´t see much left of what was, once... <BR> <BR>Like you, since skinz went down, I´ve been looking for that alternatives. Seems skinbase is the only one left with some real spirit and hope it will be around for a while. I hope now that there´s no other sites I´m even willing to login to, people will finally stop ignoring this site. <BR> <BR>Then again, a site dedicated to freeware and helping out, explicitly, would be a nice addition, ain´t got the means, would make the time... <BR> <BR>Elwin, darn, CustomEyes... he just had to redo some bitmap stuff and it would have been a winner. Winner, cause without a platform to show the skins there´s nothing. Maybe now people need to turn to skinbase, it gets a decent chance (huh, wake up!)...
elwin
Member
Plastic - "he just had to redo some bitmap stuff and it would have been a winner". Yes, and that made me mad at him for a while, because so many folks went to bat for CE. I understand why he gave up, but I´m still hoping for a C programmer to pick up the program and run with it. At this point, it really doesn´t need much except a few tweaks and bug cleanups to make it a viable, freeware option. <BR> <BR>Oh, and this whole "US/THEM" attitude that´s begun to grow in the community is one of the reasons I started the whole TANSTAAFL concept. To show both the newbies and the oldsters that you don´t have to spend money to customize your desktop, and that Freeware is still a viable option to the skin scene... <BR> <BR>Because skinning should be fun, dammit... <BR>{:p
integer
Member
Crae - I hear ya, I have taken things seriously/personally of late, and that´s what tells me something is wrong. How often do we see small devs coding free skinnables lately? When was the last time you read on a messageboard "Im looking for someone to test this lil app ive been working on?" (these questions are not directed at you personally, crae) It just doesnt happen any more. I´m not gonna let it get to me (i´ve calmed down since my earlier post), but I would like to do something about it.
craeonics
Member
True true, depending on which sites you visit, it´s either newbies asking questions or, umm, newbies asking questions. Hmm, there goes my point. <BR> <BR>I don´t know why we see so few developers though.
paxx
Member
I´m partially with you Integer, as I strongly favor freeware over payware. But when it comes to skinning Windows, I ask myself what freeware is? Can msstyles be considered freeware, even if the StyleXP patch is free? One does have to purchase XP, and god knows XP isn´t free. Looked in that perspective, WB is the cheaper solution. Dunno, just thinking aloud (sortof)... :)
chichigirl46
Member
ok ok.... There has never been a war here at this message board, and when one starts, we ALL will know who starts it, because this very discussion has been very mature..... I think I´m the oldest here :-( so me goes and stands at the entrance with my T-shirt that says NO WARS HERE and my BASEBALL BAT that is 6" in diameter because I bent my last frying pan over hobnobbers head he hee..... I love this message board :-)
paxx
Member
Now where did you get the ridiculous idea that I wouldn´t talk to you? I´ve always respected you very much, for your work as much as for your insight on any kind of topics. :) <BR> <BR>I understand your point, but my reasonning was that to me a freeware is something that anybody can install and use. So a program, even if its free, that only runs on the very latest operating system to me defies the purpose, since most people can´t affort to upgrade right away. In two years or so, it wouldn´t be an issue... <BR>Do you follow me?
integer
Member
Thanks Paxx, guess Im just feeling a bit paranoid of late :) <BR>I understand what you´re saying, I suppose I´m kinda leaning more towards the developer rather than the end-user. Im thinking more of helping the developer for his unpaid contributions rather than helping users get apps for free, although the two go hand in hand. I´m not thinking exclusively XP, but freeware apps in general, XP has just kinda triggered my thoughts on how things used to be. If someone has worked an a freeware app for XP, they deserve as much credit as someone who has developed an app for Win98 or any other OS. I do understand where your coming from however, and thanks for the input :)
chichigirl46
Member
Great discusion in here, it should be like this on all message boards, I enjoyed reading the view points and learned some things too :-)
scarebear
Member
Thanks again plastic. I finally now see what all the fuss is about! :)
plastic
Member
Scarebear, scrollbars, checkboxes, taskbar, startbutton, rightclickmenus, it´s all in there. Major difference with Wb is you can add functionality to Wb, and fiddle with the format a lot more. Msstyle format is highly configurable, but fixed in a lot of ways too.
craeonics
Member
/me smuggles in the warmongers through the backdoor
redllar
Member
And I too think this MB, and site in general, are great. Just wish the ads changed more often. Get tired of clicking on the same ones.
redllar
Member
frogboy (your replies to my "points"), <BR>3: Was more interested in effects of ruling, not why the suit was brought. Had heard that MS was going to be forced to open source parts of the shell. <BR> <BR>7: Agree re: personal attacks. Don´t care about LLC. Tit for tat, glass houses, and all that... <BR> <BR>6&8: Read your thread on skinz (he grinz.) Certainly hard too tell where l0c was coming from. Bad hair day? <BR> <BR>re: TGTSoft para: "They" definitely mislead by comparing non-XP WB mode to "Styles XP." Also agree they mislead by calling the hack a "product." That´s marketing. It´s their hook to get people interested enough to buy the styles editor. <BR> <BR>Agree w/what all others have posted, except your replies to Crae. I can´t count backwards :)
scarebear
Member
Thanks plastic. Like I said, I don´t really know as I don´t have XP. So it has various button states which sounds cool. does it skin more than the window frame though? I hope you know what I mean. Does it allow for scrollbars and all the fiddly little things WB does? I ask because I am genuinely curious. <BR> <BR>And I also think your advice to frogboy is pretty good in parts there. Sometimes you have to let some stuff go.
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