Like a swamp ? |O|

😮 Ok Iain. <br />Forget my last post Nikos. The points are there, I will see how it turns out.

Good morning. After reading what you&acute;ve both said, I only say this: of course that if we want to stay here we have to go along the rules and behaviours of admins, wether we like it or not. As I&acute;ve said in LevelX thread, he was free to leave as he was free to join. So do we. And if we stay, is because we have the freewill to do so and because no matter things are run here, we do feel OK at Skinbase. Wether Nikos has read this thread of not, he has the right - as you said Iain - to participate or not in it. And from my personal point of view, I do not judge him - or anyone else - of taking that kind of approach, although I am a completely different kind of person as I allways do have an answer to what questions and or problems people do confront me, even if I do give a stupid answer - which is not very common on me. But as my personal quote: &quot; No better or worse, just different &quot; ,we all are different from eachothers and we can not expect others reactions or behaviours to be like ours and anyone is worst than us, just because they do not meet our expectations. As said, this is my own way of seeing friendship and respect others positions.However we also have the right - as we did here with no agravation to anyone - to speak frankly on how we feel things should be. Over and out. :congrats to the participants on this thread. |O| 😎

From my experience Speaking frankly is unnacceptable here Artur and that is why I withdrew. :congrats 😎 ;)

Artur, this will be my last post on this thread. The issue has been adressed, but not been dealt with. That is sad :o <br />I consider Nikos as a friend, the admin with the same name and a different role is a different matter. He has to be accountable to all members for his actions. In a democracy there is no person that doesn&acute;t do that, it will be recognized as dictatorship. Regardless of how you think of him sometimes friends need to be corrected or at least made aware of things. It would be a disaster if in a community no one gets corrected. You may correct me anytime, whether it is work or behaviour. We talk and don&acute;t play deaf ears. <br />I still do think that featuring one person 5 times in a row is over the top and featuring 2 persons for over 2 months, while also one of them was being featured as artist of the month is too much for comfort. I stick to that belief. <br />I joined SB because at WC the admins were favouring their own people and admins above a lot of other good artists. I have always seen that as unfair. Now it is happening to SB in my view. I have no connections with Fred or Iain, but I will always defend powerless people. I thought this site with (good) admins was able to deal with it in a mature manner. However I have been proven wrong, instead 2 people are feeling humiliated and disappointed while a third has used his sitetools and is probably very happy. If he is not happy it&acute;s even a worse situation. Another one got sleepless nights. <br />This all could have been prevented if there was a genuine will to look at the issue. There isn&acute;t. |O| <br />So, with quoting you - over and out. :brb

Well, I never had that experience Iain , probably because I was allways aside of these kind of issues and conversations. Will see in the future if I&acute;ll have some surprises. But as my friends and family members use to say, I have to have allways the last word, so I do not mind to start an endless conversation, but I am the first to withdraw, when I find that others do have valuable and logical reasons and arguments. :Happy 😎 ;)

Sometimes we find we do not have far to look if we raise our gaze above the fenceline. :congrats 😎 ;) The evidence is there if we allow ourselves to see it. Some principles and beliefs are worth standing up for. Turning the other cheek is fine but I never hang around for the second slap.

I was busy installing and uninstalling Windows Vista... beautiful OS but too many problems, maybe after one year I will try to re-install Vista again. <br /> <br />So, I didn&acute;t noticed this thread. <br /> <br />I will try to make things clear. <br />I am not taking any profit from my participation in Skinbase, I just offering my service and my time to the skinning community and to my friend Gregor, the only owner of this site. <br /> <br />The choice of the featured works are having ONLY the following criterion: QUALITY with fairness for ALL members, no mater who they are! <br /> <br />How long it stays a featured work? As long as it takes to have uploaded a descent work who deserves to take the place of the previous featured work. <br /> <br />All the rest thoughts about the featured skins are wrong and in a way or another are insults, unless you are not enough sensitive to see it. <br /> <br />No problem though, everyone has the right to speak his/her mind as long as he/she speaks with politeness and fairness. <br /> <br />You like to see the system of Featured Works changing? No problem, if you have good ideas we can discuss them. <br />Accusing other people though for wrong ways, is not the best way to ask for changes, don&acute;t you think so? <br />Yes Jacob you are my friend, but you could write me instead of playing the Robin the Hood in public ;) <br /> <br />Any way, we will appreciate your ideas about featured works, I will start a new poll about it ASAP <br /> <br /> Peace and ❤️ brothers and sisters!

Each persons reaction and interpretation is their own responsibility. If more than one person is illuminating the same thoughts then maybe the current way is wrong. Accusations can be,from my own experience, things I do not want to hear. At least we have moved to a position of discussing it and I thank you for that Nikos. :congrats 😎 ;) 👏 👏 👏

Just re reading what you wrote Nikos. Jacob I would imagine wrote in the public forum because it is a public issue. We cannot expect from others what we do not practice ourselves and I say that in the friendliest fashion in regards to your statement about insults and your need to &quot;tag&quot; Jacob as Robin Hood. Put downs will get us nowhere and I suggest we all learn to treat each other as equals and with respect. If we view every fault that people find in our behaviour as an accusation we will never grow or get anywhere. I like to look at what anyone says is wrong with a critical eye and see if maybe there is any truth in what the person is saying. If they are correct then I change to make things better. The criticism given is not a personal attack Nikos. It is observations made that are being passed on to you to facillitate change and thus make things better. Life is not an easy process and some of us need to develop thicker skins instead of being so sensitive. I have no animosity toward you Nikos.....just a hope that we can move on and move the site up to a better position without personalities getting in the way. I agree with you peace is what is required....not actions born of anger. :congrats 😎 ;) ❤️

I have lied 😁 It was not my last post :p :in <br /> <br />Nikos, you may call me all kind of names but &quot;friend&quot; is the nicest one. Everybody here has to apologoze for their behaviour against you but the other way round would be just as fair! So can Iain and Fred get their stars back? <br /> <br />I find emailing a hypocritical way (although I did mail you to try to make you see), I speak openly and like to join people in if issues occur. That way you get a much more balanced view of what is needed. One to one discussions lead nowhere, apart from one happy persons outcome. A poll gives you a better view, but is too narrowminded in my opinion. Open discussion in threads would be my preferred option, but doesn&acute;t work either if no one joins in. <br /> <br />So the questions I had are still standing. <br />You have answered for queation 1, and correct me if I am wrong, 5 times featuring one person in a row is valid because there was no other quality around. The same goes for featuring 2 people for over 2 months. Was their really nothing else ? <br /> <br />I will repeat the other questions: <br />2. Would it be possible to think of a way where the same person is not featured one time after another? <br />3. Is it maybe possible to share within staff the picking of features to insure more versatility? (Different people, different tastes) <br />4. Are you also willing to look at the possibility to keep a feature up for an x-amount of days where x > 2 let alone 1 and use that as a general rule? <br /> <br />And a new one that has been sugeested in a few other threads: <br />5. Can you look at the possibility of perhaps adding extra &quot;people&acute;s choice&quot; features?, where all uplaods are included and staff has no say in it? <br /> <br />Nikos, I feel I have to walk on eggs in the skinning community. It&acute;s not a happy feeling, and in my friendcircle we all behave to make us better, in our work, our relationships, our environment. And we do correct each other when one feels necessary. For this purpose only I participate in threads. I supported you way back on WC, I support members here on SB. Let&acute;s not make SB a small subdivision of WC and act like they do. Make a difference ! <br /> <br />I also hope that hereby all the smoke is out of the air and ask people who are interested in this matter will participate in the thread, give suggestions, or maybe give their opinions too. 👏 <br /> <br />And yes, I do agree with Artur, that if there is no response, why bother? :brb

I have made my apologies in public and private....as to whether my status stars are returned or not, with the greatest of respect, that is of little interest or need. Those things do not determine who I am. Nor has taking them away had any effect negatively on my self esteem or person. I would suggest it did the site and the person removing them more harm and that is not meant as an insult nor in any negative sense. I am comfortable enough within myself for things like that to be water off a ducks back. I simply am offering an observation and an opinion based on what I see and feel. And I state again, openly...it was NEVER about my OWN WORK being FEATURED.I stated that often enough during that thread. I state here now, I never want to see my work featured...maybe one day my attitude to that will change....today I do not want it featured full stop. :congrats 😎 ;) ❤️

😂 😂 😂 😂 :congrats

As far as I can see, you are all wanting the same thing, but going in different directions. <br />Another thing is, what is the point of making a suggestion if nobody wants to discuss it. <br />I know my thread actually started all this and I apologise to everyone who has been hurt or offended. <br />Come on Guys......I love comming here and seeing all the comments made but I have noticed that a lot of people are leaving rather than joining, so can&acute;t we all get together and do something about it and let everyone know that SB is the community they should be involved with...... 😂

Whatever comes out of this I do not think people will be inclined to speak truthfully and that is what we have lost. To me that is a great pity. I take note that nowhere near the number that have been grumbling are anywhere near this thread...that should speak volumes. :congrats ❤️

Well, I am happy with the first outcome of this thread. To be honest, I have never lost the hope that Nikos would come here and say what he needed and opted to say. And again believe me that no emails were exchanged between us regarding this matter.Well, so far so good. I am happy also that Nikos explained what he explained regarding his involvement here at SB and his way of giving features to artwoks. And I believe to a certain extent that Nikos does wait sometimes - if not all - for quality works to show. I can give you an example which I do remenber and which is related with photography: there were two or 3 times in 2006 that featured photography were some &quot;old&quot; images - as far as I remenber images dated 2003 - from Brub - who I do not see here for a long time. Probably if Nikos would pay more attention, eventually he had found some recent work that would be more than deserving the &quot;feature&quot;...but again, is Nikos taste and sense of artistic balance , not mine. So....that said, I have to give Nikos the benefit of the doubt. I&acute;ve read carefully Nikos words,Jacob&acute;s words, Janet words and Iain&acute;s words. I can understand all your points although probaly I do not accept some of them, but...I respect all of you.As far as I am concerned, I will speak truthfully, openly and honestly in any thread and/or matter, here at Skinbase. If I do not make so...you&acute;re not speaking with me but probably with someone I do not even know. :congrats 😎

I&acute;ve been trying to stay away from all these &quot;debates&quot;... and I use that word lightly! <br /> <br />It seems to me that over the last few weeks a number of folks have taken it upon themselves to question what this website is here for... well here&acute;s my tuppenceworth... <br /> <br />This site was set up by a talented graphic artsit to encourage others to use their imagination, with the availability of pc software to enhance their own individual graphic skills... a bit like encouraging children to enjoy vegetables ( or better still music ), and it got a lot of people going one way or the other! <br />Being here is a &quot;gift&quot;! not as a human right. To be a Member of Skinbase is to have a means to share or have an audience that you might not otherwise have ... basically if you don&acute;t like the way it works FUCK OFF and find something better... ( you won&acute;t find it at DA and you won&acute;t get it at Skinz... you will regret leaving Sinbase ) <br /> <br />I would advise all of you who doubt the integrity of this site to look at what has happened to a number of others over the last few years... and take stock, control their anger... and apologise where apologies are due... <br /> <br />Then let&acute;s all get on with 2007 and what it has to offer... <br /> <br />So shut up and smile! <br /> <br /> 👏

Take a powder mick and take stock of the fact that you have had your gripes here too. Fact is the site CAN function better if it is done democratically with input from all. Are you afraid of moving the site forward? Are you afraid of letting it become better than DA or Skinz ? DA went the way it did and continues to dive because of the dictatorial and elitist attitude of the administration not to mention the piratical behaviour of the current self appointed head. WE are a good site and if it is to get better it needs ALL of us to be unafraid in taking it forward. WE are better than a lot of sites out there no denying that but WE can do better. That is not a crime....that is an advantage and an asset. It is not a threat to the administration here it is a resource. The membership if they are using the site in a mutually beneficial manner have every right to ask for change. As for apologies.....look above Mick.......From the three main players...two of us have apologised and one currently has not. Here is an old phrase to ponder on Mick. Ensure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear.......I do not need you to shut up....be as vocal as you like. Shutting up achieves nothing. By all means smile!!! 👏 👏 👏 :congrats ❤️

I am sorry to Nikos or to anybody here who I offended in the original thread. I got carried away and should have expressed myself differently. It was not my intention to offend anybody, but perhaps its easy for me to say because I was not on the receiving end of it all. Its good that Nikos is willing to open a poll of some sort regarding features. Having said that, this is my last post on this subject. I wish everyone the best here. I do believe that the good here by far outweighs any bad. Thats what I intend focusing my efforts on. :)

Yes Artur, Nikos took advise awhile back that if he couldn&acute;t find any current works to be featured to look in older galleries. Which is pretty kewl. Having said that, was there a need to feature the same picture twice? :o ...Must have been a slip of the keyboard. And now this has really been my last post on this topic 👏

👏

Burp ;)

Well my friends, all these questions can only be answered by Nikos himself. On what features are concerned, I&acute;ve said already what I think which are more or less in accordance with Jacob&acute;s opinions.I could take another approach and contact Nikos privately. I did not that as a matter of transparency towards all SB members. As said, I have some experience of communities and until today, they are working OK as I do answer questions and listen to members opinions and when not in agreement, I tell them why I do not agree.So far, so good. It&acute;s not easy - I think - to administrate such a big community as SB and attend all members requests and whishes in order to have an average of opinions and then decide. But it is not impossible.Being a staff member I have the responsibility to &quot;take care&quot; of SB - as per the tasks I was incharge - that&acute;s what I am doing, as per the spare time I have.Probably I am not a good staff member - raising all these questions - but I am a good SB member.And for me, is the most important 🍺

Artur, there hasn&acute;t even been a debate about the featuring process though. 😢 <br />And it&acute;s sad to see people focus on people rather than look at the issue. The issue of featuring. Regardless of what is being said - &quot;they don&acute;t get featured and all they wanted is to get featured&quot; - it is obvious by the statements of several people they wanted improvements for SB and not personal gratification. Is that so wrong? <br />Now, you say you are cold and fair, let&acute;s look at the photofeaturing in a cold way, say from January 2006. <br />Facts are: <br /> <br />As of 5-1 2006 <br />Person &quot;1&quot; gets 2 features in a row followed by person &quot;2&quot;, &quot;3&quot;, and &quot;4&quot;... <br />Then person &quot;1&quot; gets another feature, person &quot;3&quot; gets 2 features in a row...After that, a new person &quot;5&quot; gets featured 5 times in a row, whereafter person &quot;1&quot; gets featured. <br />A new person &quot;6&quot; gets then 2 features, followed by &quot;5&quot;, and then &quot;1&quot; again.. <br />We are already at the end of March where 2 new people get featured &quot;6&quot; and &quot;7&quot;, then &quot;1&quot; again 2 in a row. <br />Let&acute;s recap: In 3 months 1 gets featured 7 times, 2 - 1, 3 - 3, 4 - 1, 5 - 6, 6 - 1, 7 -1...In other words 4 people a single feature, one person 3, one person 6 and one person 7 features. <br />Now let&acute;s look at the days the features were up. Out of the roughly 90 days 25 days went to 2,3,4,6,7 and 65 days to 1 and 5. <br /> <br />I do not believe that it has been this one-sided the next quarters, but I do have a point where I can ask staff for a bit more equally divided featuring don&acute;t I? After all there are many types of styles. One has to ask: Does staff prefer to feature one kind of style that they like? Or are they able to feature different styles that are equally good in &quot;quality&quot; ? <br />Are there some simple rules to set up so that more people can get featured? Rules like, a feature stays up for 5 days, not shorter, not longer. This seems to me more fair. <br /> I really do hope a positive outcome on this topic, and a factual debate on this issue rather than playing blame games. As you say SB needs it and so do the members. <br />

Jacob, I see you point very clearly but I do not have anything to do with featured artworks. Besides, I started this topic with an objective: an open discussion on how we can all improve the site, to give our opinions and thoughs and try to make processes the most transparent possible. :Happy 🍺 |O|

Respectfully I would like to suggest that is what Jacob is doing. I understand you have nothing to do with featured artwork Artur. Jacob is alerting to a way to improve the site and asking for open discussion. I also commend you for at least seeking a way forward Artur. I truly believe it is needed and of no other threat than we may increase our membership rather than decrease it. :congrats 😎 ;)

The other point I would like to respectfully suggest Artur is people may well be hesitant to offer suggestions for improvement or to openly discuss anything. There are only three of us willing to talk on this thread.....that is interesting. :congrats 😎 ;)

One thing I have noticed missing in the FAQ is site rules....we have no etiquette policy,no description for complaints procedure and no process or dept to help people. Currently we are just supposed to know. With growth being the operative hope these things will become necessary. Some are necessary now so newcomers know what they can or cannot do. I know about how to handle complaints solely because of the information I have about Administrator procedures here. That any offender must be given a warning and the infringement spelt out with a request to modify behaviour with a consequence stated if compliance is not obtained. The average person would be oblivious to that here. :congrats 😎 ;)

Yes, I understood Jacob&acute;s point and I know that either you,him and myself - interesting indeed that only three persons are discussing this being that I suspect that we are the ones - probably among others - that , despite all our feelings , do feel OK here ate SB - are writing our opinions, seeking for a better SB. Question? If only three of us are discussing this or willing to suggest, probably is because everybody else is OK, then this thread is useless. Right? On the issue of the site rules, I agree with you Iain, as ie: on my foruns, prior to accept people there, they have to read a &quot;bible&quot; of 10 rules I have made - which by the way seemed sensible and reasonable for myself but were contested many times by members, but nonetheless, they are as they are and everybody is feeling ok there, believe me. I cannot compare my foruns with SB, as they are a drop on the ocean compared with Skinbase, but one has to have a basis for understanding and behaviour and most important, how things work here: level of membership - why, how ? - featured artwork - why, how? - etc,etc etc.Again, I am speaking as a member, not as a staff member, as I would have open this thread either way. |O| 🍺

Yes Artur...... I agree with you but I don&acute;t think it is useless...nor do I think everyone else is okay. I spend a lot of time here and watch and see and notice a lot that the administration misses. There are large gaps where no admins are here. That is not a dig....just a fact. I know that Nikos was oblivious some months back to an issue going on until I pointed to where he could find it. That is where people like us come into play. Because we care about the site we do our best to keep an eye on it so it stays here. There are plenty of people who criticize but only a few that get in there and try to do something about it. That has been my experience in all walks of life. A broadening of the FAQ is a real must in my view.There are a lot of things we could do but my feeling is to sort the basics and iron out those things that are frequently an issue. As long as we are not afraid to tackle them or discuss them I see no harm or no problem. :congrats 😎 ;)

Neither of us 3 Artur, have opened a thread about the features. It has been questioned by more people on different occasions. Then, a feature a couple of weeks ago sparked a boiling point by some SB members. As you say, you are not in charge of picking features, the one that is though, has never entered the debate but chose a different way of communicating. In doing so nothing is resolved and no common ground has been reached, and a big silence is heard. Having seen the latest outcome I am not surprised nobody is speaking their minds anymore and even turn their heads away. I really cannot see this is good for SB. If I am wrong, just tell me why it has been good for SB. <br /> <br />You speak of rules Artur, I can say everybody here is willing to abide by rules if they make sense, but does that mean staff do not have to abide by rules of fairness, equalness and impartialism? Basically that&acute;s what is at stake. <br /> <br />We, as members, do not have any powers, we can only speak out our concerns. If there is no response on a mature level from the staff, what does that radiate to the members? Members need interaction with staff when they start questioning things, and debates should be held in all openness and with dignity while sticking to the facts. A solid interaction is the basis of a healthy relationship between staff and members. The only one I can think of was TAXIFUNK, always willing to participate or fix problems. <br /> <br />Now, going back to what I have summoned above, the featuring in the first quarter, and since you, Artur, withdraw yourself from responsibility ( you don&acute;t pick features ), I can only ask the person who does the features, my friend Nikos : <br /> <br />1. Do you think it was a fair way of featuring, have you looked at them with an impartial eye, and do you treat every person with equalness? <br />2. Would it be possible to think of a way where the same person is not featured one time after another? <br />3. Is it maybe possible to share within staff the picking of features to insure more versatility? (Different people, different tastes) <br />4. Are you also willing to look at the possibility to keep a feature up for an x-amount of days where x > 2 let alone 1 and use that as a general rule? <br /> <br />I really hope Nikos that you will answer these questions and also give a reasoning. <br /> <br />I do urge anyone else to put more questions in regarding the featuring if they have any. And please in a respectful way. <br /> :sen

Cannot argue with you on any of those points Jacob and as you say we have no power which means any show of force by staff causes humiliation which is why we have the feeling about the place we do. The end result has been not what was intended. More harm has been done to the site and frankly I consider enough is enough. We will not get anywhere as you say by silence. :congrats 😎 ;)

One last point......Anyone percieving criticism as a threat really needs to check out whether they are open to growth or whether they are closed minded and more interested in staying static.This is an art site and constructive criticism is encouraged. If you are deliberately offensive then in my book you deserve what comes from that. :congrats 😎 ;)

No doubting you are a good member Artur.....and in my view a good staff member and currently the only staff member to talk openly and willing to discuss with an honest approach. I thank you for that....but then....you and I have always been able to discuss anything without problems. :congrats 😎 ;)

That&acute;s true Iain, no problems with us whatsoever. But then...I do not have problems with anybody, as far as I keep faithfull to myself:full transparency. At least I do try. 😎 🍺

Let&acute;s hope Nikos is willing to answer in all openness :) It takes courage to do that, and he has proved to me in the past he has that :)

Exactly Artur and I agree with you too Jacob. :congrats 😎 ;)

Was Nikos that invited me to be part of the staff of SB. I have had always for him - and still do - all the respect and a good friendship along the net for the past 4 years and I&acute;ve never let that other matters would interfere with that. Friendship is like that: accept the other as he is, no more no less.We can give our opinions with respect and friendship. :Happy |O| 🍺

I agree with you entirely Artur and I was always of the same opinion.....that opinion has now changed. :congrats 😎 ;)

I do accept others as they are except in matters that encroach on my boundaries. Some behaviour I will not tolerate. My rules are simple. Do what you like as long as you cause no harm to self or others. Simple really. I walk with people of the same ilk. :congrats 😎 ;)

In addition to what you said of accepting people as they are Artur,and after consulting with others I have arrived at the following position. Nikos has had ample opportunity to participate in this thread and has not. We have to accept that. Nikos as co owner of the side can structure and implement whatever policies he sees fit and take whatever actions he likes. That is his right also. I personally do not agree with how things are nor how they have been dealt with . That is my view on it all. At the end of the day the only course we have is to follow. Given the current circumstances and given what is currently in place and what has been said I am of the view that if I wish to remain here I cannot run the risk of inadvertently causing offence or insult real or percieved. I wish to remain here. I therefore feel I cannot be as open as I would like and therefore withdraw from this discussion and this thread. I thank you for what you are trying to achieve and ,I do, as you know, value and appreciate your friendship.I cannot discuss things honestly at present so I would not be giving you a correct response Artur. I feel restricted. Sorry. :congrats 😎 ;)

Oh well :p it is how it is... |O| This site was once in an archaic state, now it has become hellenistic. Such is life !